Germany agreed to an alliance with Russia, but ended up invading Russia in 1941 during World War 2. It happens in real life as well, so suck it up
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:57 pm
Death_Merchant
My opinion is that backstabbing, lies should be allowed, simply because thats part of what makes the hotseat fun and unpredictable, the way i see it is that Soulfly was going to give those regions then you decided to fight a war in the south, which makes his position more secure meaning he doesn't have to give those regions after all.
People who backstab quickly build up a reputation, so therefore they are unlikely to be trusted later in the game. Being honest has its own rewards, but also is a disadvantage for the more sneaky players.
Its not like medieval rulers were at all honest, quite the contrary in-fact.
RE: Gothic, the game isnt fair in the first place, its not like i ever had an equal footing with the larger factions, the way i see it you make the best of what you've got, not come complaining saying denmark has an advantage. Factions will always have advantages over others, its up to your skill, tactical nous and luck to win the game. Any one player is unlikely to win the game, the best they can hope for is a decent ally and a bit of luck, then maybe you have a chance.
All hope is not lost, even if down to only 1 region, so please for the sake of the other players don't quit. There was a campaign on TWC where france was down to one region (Milan) and they ended up winning the game in the end, you never know what might happen.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:04 pm
Gothic
No mate, I dont have to.
I felt sorry about Lithuania because he was getting beaten by TO and I offered help, I got knife in my back in return.I expected Denmark to honor their word I got knife in my back - not cool.I expect some basic social norms to be preserved when I play hotseat.
DeathMerchant, you disappoint me man I just approached with my army and run away like scared chicken and throw Lithuania on me LOL. You got some nice army there, even if I captured Mglin I would have to back off because you have superior troops there, you could easily take it back and get some coins and settlements for peace, we could have some fun and fair fight - instead you gang on me with Lithuania LMAO and when I ask you nicely for peace and offer coins you tell me to buzz off LOL Easy to be bad boy when there is 3vs1.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:07 pm
Death_Merchant
— Gothic wroteEasy to be bad boy when there is 3vs1.
Easy to walk a full stack into my territory when you are the bigger faction
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:42 pm
Death_Merchant
Lithuania up
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:55 pm
Gothic
Tsar of Novgorod decided to ask Lithuania-Mongolia for peace, despite recent hostilities we believe there is still reason not to kill each other to joy of our enemies ... We will pay 100 coins to Mongolia for moral damages as none of their troops have been attacked or settlements sacked, soldiers responsible for crossing border has been executed, and 300 coins to Lithuania for damages.This is what our economy currently allows.Trade rights will be given which will offer great boost to your economies.
We are also interested to join Lithuanian-Mongolian alliance as we think we may share some common values ...
Tsar is very sorry for what happen and we can asure you we will respect your borders, as we will back off all military troops from nearby area.
Last edited by Gothic on Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
{CA}Soulfly Currently Offline Offline Most Played: This week: 1.6hrs. Total Played: 1,280hrs.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:54 pm
Saspi
Hey there Gothic, just read your proposal and this message has nothing to do with it so dont get upset since Ill reply to your offer privately... I can understand you think I backstabbed you. Heres the deal.
Turn 1 Novgorod were the first ones to approach me. Gothic wanted a village for gold. I offered the village either for 2x the gold Gothic offered or by telling Gothic to attack some Teuton cities. I even spoke about a military alliance:
This military alliance, the Grand Duke thinks, would indeed turn us into the biggest military strengths and would allow us to exterminate any warmongering faction. Thus, our citizen will live in peace.
Turn2 Novgorod makes turn and posts on the hotseat thread after I publicly announced my intention to destroy the TO the following:
Novgorod fullly supports their heroic fight with Teutonic Order. We hope these bastards get destroyed soon.
Then, first Private message I get from Gothic, after offering the deal, is this:
hey saspi maybe you will change faction to Norway ? I think you would have better chances, Lithuania is weak and Order even on AI is going to wipe it out.Norway is much more fun to play.
I respond with this:
I dont understand this message gothic. Is it an old message before the hotseat started? I cant change faction, the hotseat already started. I know the Teutonic Order is strong but if we unite we can beat them, in fact I already killed a major teutonic army that wanted to invade me.
and this:
Forgot to ask if you want to join the Free Nations coalition?
Ok, so far it is clear im trying to make an alliance with Gothic. Gothic publicly said he supported me but privately he sent me a message telling me to change faction. Note that I still have no response on the deal offered but rather a strange reply, which makes me paranoid on a mongol-novgorod alliance invasion. I need novgorod attacking TO already to discard such an alliance.
I cant risk myself on waiting, so I go test the waters with Death and end up making a military alliance with Mongols. This alliance took me much much less time to agree for some reason than it is taking me with Gothic. I plan to announce Mongolia-Lithuania alliance next turn. Also at this point, Ive been told gothic can be sneaky sometimes. So I begin to think he is plotting something against me since, to me, it seems he is trying to delay the negotiations for some reason. I hear as well that Soul is sneaky.
Then the conflict between Novgorod and Denmark is announced and Novgorod PM me with a counteroffer:
ok, lets kill TO, I want to let you know you are safe on your back from east Novgorod is not going to backstab you,I will help you destroy TO but Novgorod expects loyality and friendship in return.
He finally wants an alliance. But I already have an alliance. I dont reply to him yet and post on hotseat thread this:
The Grand Duke of Lithuania, Mindaugas, declares the Free Nations Coalition against the Teutonic Order has grown to be 2 members strong now.
Right now, that second member is obviously Mongolia. However I cant remember if the alliance was made before mongolia was delivered his turn (when novgorod invaded) or after. Only Death Merchant may know this. I think it was before anyway.
At this point Im troubled whether to accept Novgorod offer since I already have an ally, and since I think Novgorod plots against me. But then Novgorod sends this:
I will not be able to help you mate,sorry, war with Denmark awaits.It was not supposed to be like that but it happened (not my fault though)
So cleary right now we have no offers going anymore nor any agreement with Novgorod. Gothic is not gonna help me anymore with TO, so in accordance to all this, im not obliged to tell Gothic we are not friends anymore since we have no diplomacy going anymore. But still I tell Gothic the following to know im starting to be upset and suspicous about him:
Your messages have confused me all along.
I really feel bad that Denmark is going in war against you and probably HRE as well from what Ive read. I dont know whats really is going behind the curtains but I have the feeling that you didnt wanted a war with Denmark.
But also I have started to suspect that there will not be a real war between you and Denmark but rather a fake war. A fake war that will give you an excuse from helping me destroy the TO. I cant really believe 2 small dane cities pose a true threat to Novgorod nor I can believe a war emerged on turn 2.
I cant really trust you right now. I want you to know that I wont stop my attack on the TO. If anyone, you or Denmark, try to attack me while im destroying the TO, ill have no problem fighting them on my own. And having a new ally that has promised to help me in case im invaded, I can safely say that I wont fight on my own. So consider all this before thinking of attacking Lithuania.
The most important detail about this message is I reveal I have an ally, as to warn Gothic from doing anything to Mongolia. But I didnt knew Mongolia had already being invaded.
The reason I think Denmarks is bluffing is that, right after war rumours began, Gothic declined to help me against TO. So I thought those 2 could have teamed up in spite of what both Novgorod and Denmark had told me in private.
Once again, all this is before I knew about the Novgorod army on mongol territory.
Then Im told about the Novgorod Invasion and I recieve this message from Gothic:
It was not supposed to be like that.I offered Denmark to buy north and he did agree, and the same time I sent PM to HRE warning him that Danmark may attack him soon.That's it.Just a warning to HRE.
He canceled deal so war is inevitable, my army was on the way to Duraburg but it needs to come back and clear north.So I won't be able to help you with TO most probably - blame Denmark , he should stick to deal he did agreed *************************.
And I replied with this:
All that is not important now. Situation has changed since your army was found inside mongolian territory. The Mongols happen to be my trustworthy allies I talked you about. Neither them nor me want war with you, so please retreat your troops from his territory and ill retreat mine.
I guess its not your fault, you didnt knew about Mongolia being my ally but we were planning to announce it on the 3rd turn.
Gothic replies amongst other things with this:
Mongols use you against me that's it.
After thinking about it, I dont know if this is true.
I attacked your troops and crushed them just to show you how easy is for Russian troops to defeat Lithuanian ones
I give you chance honorable leave my land or I will attack you and you are going to have major damage to your army...
This didnt made any sense to me. Gothic offers me not to attack me If i leave but he has already attacked some of my units!?! And then after attacking my units, Gothic offers me this: "If you drop Mongols, you will get trade rights with Russia,peace on the eastern flank so you can move all your troops against TO and I will share mongolian land with you and help you out with TO as soon I wipe off Denmark from north." I reject.
And the rest is history...
So basically the most important things to point out are this: - Novgorod and Lithuania never had a closed deal, only unfinished negotiations. - Novgorod ceased negotiations after Denmarks threat (thats because he never gave another counter offer). - It is unknown for me whether Mongolia agreed on an alliance on the knowledge he was being invaded or not. - I accidentaly declared war on Gothic and pointed it out to him. - I didnt backstabed Gothic because all we had was unfinished negotiations and those negotiations ended with Gothic telling me he he couldnt help me with TO. - I had a growing suspicion Denmark was allied with Gothic, since Gothic attacked my troops as if he was in the position of power and not in the position of someone who is about to get in a 3vs1 war.
Gothic, facts are, you got in war against Mongolia-Lithuania whether you expected ir or not and whether it was just or not. You were given the chance of peace so you could focus on Denmark and you rejected it by attacking my troops. You had the chance to go 1vs1 against soulfly but you rather chose have a 3vs1 by attacking my troops. You made some errors, thats all. From my view you contradicted yourself with each nation you are at war right now, therefore each nation responded: 1- Making a deal with Denmark and then trying to create distrust between Denmark and HRE. 2- Sending a huge army inside the territory of Mongolia and then wanting peace with them. 3- Not helping Lithuania with TO, nor anything, attacking Lithuania (after Lithuania invades Novgorod only to OBTAIN PEACE) and then wanting to have Lithuania as friends against Mongolia.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:05 pm
Gothic
My army was supposed to attack TO as we agreeded - not my fault - dishonorable Denmark canceled diplomatic deal.I had to turn back my army to defend Novgorod as Denmark recruited major army there.
Mongols are not without fault, he didnt' aproach me offering alliance so I got idea he will attack me, and most probably he planned as his army who took Mglin was larger than needed.
And please don't post so detailed - confidential - PMs or everybody will hate me LOL
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:14 pm
Death_Merchant
— Saspi wrote - It is unknown for me whether Mongolia agreed on an alliance on the knowledge he was being invaded or not.
Thats impossible as Soulfly subbed me on turn 1, the alliance was agreed before my first turn as mongols (turn 2) Soulfly told me nothing of Mongol invasion.
— Gothic wrote Mongols are not without fault, he didnt' aproach me offering alliance so I got idea he will attack me, and most probably he planned as his army who took Mglin was larger than needed.
nope, wrong again, i didnt plan on attacking anyone at least right away, i didnt want an alliance with you as i knew you were an agressive player that would get me dragged into pointless wars that would get us both destroyed.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:30 pm
Gothic
— Death_Merchant wroteagressive player that would get me dragged into pointless wars that would get us both destroyed.
oh really ... ? I was your best and most reliable ally and we had great success as allies until you failed me last hotseat. I remebered that ... if not Lithuania ... Anyway ....time to forget about old gruges Gentelmen , future awais full of gold ,whores and glory ! No point to waste energy and money on pointless wars. I want to focus now on economy as recruitments cost me dearly...
I admit it was grave mistake to breach into Mongolian territorry but let me say this again, it was only border passing and scouting, not attack - I could take Mglin but I didn't. My armies pulled back from Mongolia (that fort will be demolished) and have no intentions to come back.
Novgorod will pay for border passing and finally will grant both of you trade rights, send your diplomats.
Tsar of Russia prizes wisdom of Great Mongolian Khan and mighty king of Lithuania, we are happy there still men of honor able to honor diplomatic agreements.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:40 pm
Saspi
You might later not be very happy of saying this:
we are happy there still men of honor able to honor diplomatic agreements.
Do you really want to discuss peace publicly? Ive invited you to an xfire chat, but if you want to discuss this publicly I have no problem.
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:26 pm
Saspi
No private chat is going so public announcement:
Lithuania will continue war against Novgorod. The gold offer is too low and even if it was high enough Lithuania cant have on the north a nation that attacked us recently.
We see the current situation as a great opportunity to get rid of an inminent threat to Lithuania. May Giltine be with you Gothic.
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I just approached with my army and run away like scared chicken and throw Lithuania on me LOL. You got some nice army there, even if I captured Mglin I would have to back off because you have superior troops there, you could easily take it back and get some coins and settlements for peace, we could have some fun and fair fight - instead you gang on me with Lithuania LMAO 
